[main blog post] List of Books on Germanish Belief with Thoughts

[jprussell]

I have put together a list of those books I have read and want to read about Germanish belief/worship/religion. I haven't added all of my thoughts yet, but I wanted to meet my goal of posting this week, and this post is meant to be added to as I go anyhow.

Suggestions on books I might add are most welcome!

Comments

[jprussell]

B1.3) One may think Freyr was a human promoted by polytheists and "demoted" by Christians.

Indeed! Also, much like Freyja, since their "names" just mean "Lord" and "Lady", there's the further possibility that initially distinct figures got merged/conflated/confused at various points.

C5) https://www.northernpaganism.org/shrines/loki/writings-for-loki/a-prayer-to-loki.html

Thanks for this, I likely ought to have put it together. I suspected she did, but she's even-handed enough in most of her writing to acknowledge folks who don't and what their reasons are without obviously putting them down or calling them wrong. That prayer makes me slightly uncomfortable from a JMG-inspired "get consent for folks you pray for" standpoint.

Correct me if I'm wrong: people don't seem to have found evidence of that, even though it seems to make sense, right?

As far as I know, that's correct, and that's certainly what I was implying. I've been meaning to take another look at comparative evidence from other religions to get a feel for what (if any) worship was given to Beings treated negatively in myths. Of particular interest would be looking at Hades or similar figures from other mythologies to get a handle on whether Hel ought to be worshipped. She's an unusual case in the myths, and the arguments for why to worship her make a certain amount of sense to me, and the arguments for why not worshipping her may be due to a Christian-derived bias are also plausible, but I haven't dug into it enough to have a sense, so for now, I don't actively worship Her, but I also try to be respectful.

C5.1) Yeah - I think the meaning's core for Setians is "individuality".

Ah, okay, then yeah, my understanding of JBP's take would be that he is, indeed, an archetype of individuality, but of all the bad side of individuality, with Horus as the good side (and with both together a full representation of what any given human individual is actually like).

C7.1) I'm not saying this is wrong, but see "later rationalizations".

Indeed. I suppose for myself I'm not quite sure how to handle the alternatives between 1) the idea that myths were inchoate, partially formed intuitions about those later rationalizations versus 2) the idea that myths can mean a lot of things and maybe those rationalizations are one of those things, but they're not exhaustive, versus 3) those rationalizations are the product of different thoughts and a different age that have little to do with what the myths/early stories/early practice meant to the folks telling/doing them. It seems to me like Option 1 (of which JBP is a big fan, via Jung) might often be plausible, but also like applying it universally only makes sense if you believe in Progress.

C7.6) I think he self-describes as classical Liberal, and thus a rather unsubtle Progressive/modernist who objects to the "post-" part (and even then, even I might think original postmodernism was worth paying attention to, and what has no upside at all is "vulgar postmodernism").

Yeah, I think that's fair. I get the impression he has sometimes bumped into the borders of why this worldview might be missing some important stuff, or be mistaken in certain ways, but he still seems pretty committed to it.

D) I didn't mean to make work for you, but you *did* boast you'd write 52 articles this year ... :D

Fair enough!

[deketemoisont]

C5) "Thanks for this, I likely ought to have put it together. I suspected she did, but she's even-handed enough in most of her writing to acknowledge folks who don't and what their reasons are without obviously putting them down or calling them wrong." - I *have* thought she's more reasonable than Raven Kaldera - but ... faint praise even if true?

"That prayer makes me slightly uncomfortable from a JMG-inspired "get consent for folks you pray for" standpoint." - Well, YES, but if you worship Loki, how's the Lokasenna not gonna be involved?

Note also that Kaldera/Krasskova's ideas about deities in general *right now* don't involve a whole lot of concern for human consent about them:

"At the same time: where I work, what I do, where I live, whether or not I can have any particular partner, sometimes what I eat and drink and wear are all dictated to me. How much sleep I get, and what friends I may have are impacted by Odin’s ownership of me." - Galina Krasskova, http://kenazfilan.blogspot.com/2010/08/filan-and-krasskova-on-ordeals-and-god.html .

(Can I say about someone *absurdly* more experienced than I: she's doing *Odin* worship quite wrongly?)

"She's an unusual case in the myths, and the arguments for why to worship her make a certain amount of sense to me, and the arguments for why not worshipping her may be due to a Christian-derived bias are also plausible, but I haven't dug into it enough to have a sense, so for now, I don't actively worship Her, but I also try to be respectful." - Although it's been said her dead subjects will fight the Aesir's, I have similar inclinations - for one, I don't have a source on hand, but I've read arguments I considered convincing that the Germanic afterlife was distorted into Valhalla-centrism and that goind to Helheim originally wasn't supposed to be considered unfortunate; and you might want to consider https://lyricstranslate.com/en/therion-helheim-lyrics.html (if you don't know it already - but in any case you have heard about Thomas Karlsson already, right?).

C7.1) "but also like applying it universally only makes sense if you believe in Progress." - Possibly, but I'm sure I still have Progressive thought in my mind, and it makes me think we aren't a whole lot like the people that wrote this stuff, therefore JBP's putting a *lot* of himself and his much more recent influences into it (with admittedly pretty interesting results?).

C7.6) "he still seems pretty committed to it." - Might there be things he thinks he can't say? But, I dunno, he actually seems fairly transparent to me? (And has been argued to have become a trans-parent to many people?)

[jprussell]

C5) I *have* thought she's more reasonable than Raven Kaldera - but ... faint praise even if true?

Quite.

Well, YES, but if you worship Loki, how's the Lokasenna not gonna be involved?

Yeah, I suppose that's somewhat begging the question to be like "wow, the fact that you worship Loki in exactly the way I'm uncomfortable with makes me uncomfortable about the idea of worshipping Loki."

Note also that Kaldera/Krasskova's ideas about deities in general *right now* don't involve a whole lot of concern for human consent about them:

"At the same time: where I work, what I do, where I live, whether or not I can have any particular partner, sometimes what I eat and drink and wear are all dictated to me. How much sleep I get, and what friends I may have are impacted by Odin’s ownership of me." - Galina Krasskova, http://kenazfilan.blogspot.com/2010/08/filan-and-krasskova-on-ordeals-and-god.html .

Ooooooh yeah, now that you link it, I think I read that piece a while back when someone else from the Ecosophia community linked it. It's weird, because I find what she's talking about *incredibly* creepy/gross (though not as gross as Kaldera's practices detailed here: https://archive.ph/TbVMW), but can't *really* fault her reasoning or feel justified in condemning folks for doing something in private by themselves or only with fully-consenting adults. So, I dunno how much is me being a prude (though it sounds like for Krasskova, it's not *exactly* sexual, at least not always), how much I ought to trust my instincts, or what.

(Can I say about someone *absurdly* more experienced than I: she's doing *Odin* worship quite wrongly?)

Well, folks on the Thorsson/Flowers "Odian" end of things, who seek to *emulate* Odin rather than to "worship" Him, would certainly say so. My own experience is consistent with the idea that He expects and demands respect, but also expects you to learn from His example.

[jprussell]

Whoops, forgot to reply to the whole comment!

C5.2) Although it's been said her dead subjects will fight the Aesir's, I have similar inclinations - for one, I don't have a source on hand, but I've read arguments I considered convincing that the Germanic afterlife was distorted into Valhalla-centrism and that goind to Helheim originally wasn't supposed to be considered unfortunate; and you might want to consider https://lyricstranslate.com/en/therion-helheim-lyrics.html (if you don't know it already - but in any case you have heard about Thomas Karlsson already, right?).

Yeah, I also feel like the evidence we have for "Valhalla = end-all, be-all of desirable afterlife" and "Helheim = where gross losers go to suck for eternity" is likely late, skewed, and not a terribly accurate picture of how pre-Christian Heathens, except maybe very late ones, looked at the afterlife. Add in the Western Occultism lens and a belief in reincarnation, and things get even messier. For what it's worth, in The One-Eyed God (again!), Kershaw floats the idea that the notion of a feasting hall for the honored dead warriors of the tribe likely originally meant "all adult men", since all adult men would serve as warriors when needed. This belief getting narrowed and made more exclusive would be consistent with the warrior-class becoming more exclusive.

As for Thomas Karlsson, I think maybe someone shared the same link before, but I basically only know what Wikipedia can tell me. Do you feel like his writings (as opposed to his lyrics) are worth checking out?

That song's pretty rad, I'll have to check out at least the rest of the album, if not more Therion. Thanks to "Survive the Jive", I've been enjoying Wolcensmen lately, which is "dark folk", and so not as hard, but still high-quality music made by a practicing Heathen about relevant topics.

C7.1) Possibly, but I'm sure I still have Progressive thought in my mind, and it makes me think we aren't a whole lot like the people that wrote this stuff, therefore JBP's putting a *lot* of himself and his much more recent influences into it (with admittedly pretty interesting results?).

Yeah, that's a fair point. That's one thing JMG has gotten me a lot more comfortable with - it doesn't necessarily matter if what I get out of a myth is the same as what the folks around when it was written down got out of it - what matters is if it puts me in touch with spiritual truths, and since those insights can be guided by separate, conscious Beings, "different but still right" is a valid outcome.

C7.6) Might there be things he thinks he can't say? But, I dunno, he actually seems fairly transparent to me? (And has been argued to have become a trans-parent to many people?)

I don't think it's a matter of him feeling like he can't say things, and more like that as good as he is at following the implications of things out to their uncomfortable conclusions, I think there's a few places he can't/won't see things because his worldview is still pretty fundamentally that of a Western Liberal Materialist Scientist. For example, he sees School of Rome-derived "limits to growth" thinking as inherently anti-human and dangerous. His counter-proposal is to be smarter about spreading the industrial capitalist opportunity around, because historically, richer countries have taken more steps to preserve the environments within their borders than they did when they were poorer (see: reforestation of England, establishment of national parks in US, and so forth). As JMG would be the first to admit, *yes* many "environmentalists" are actually Stalinists or other flavors of control-freaks, and JBP's not wrong to pick up on that, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the idea that we live in a finite world with finite resources and thus the long-term carrying capacity for humans might be far lower than where we are now is wrong. " The opposite of one bad idea. . ." and all that.

And heh, I see what you did there.

[deketemoisont]

"It's weird, because I find what she's talking about *incredibly* creepy/gross (though not as gross as Kaldera's practices detailed here: https://archive.ph/TbVMW), but can't *really* fault her reasoning or feel justified in condemning folks for doing something in private by themselves or only with fully-consenting adults." - Eh, I don't question (taking claims at face value) they have a right to do so, but that doesn't by itself prove they aren't making the world worse - I think "condemning", in this sense, is quite fitting.

"So, I dunno how much is me being a prude (though it sounds like for Krasskova, it's not *exactly* sexual, at least not always), how much I ought to trust my instincts, or what." - I wouldn't classify myself as a prude for having a problem with that; and, well, Kaldera also made a claim about it not being always about sex, but I might say the difference from the guys at National Geographic is that they aren't having sex while doing it (technically, some of the stuff about cultures on National Geographic omits sexual content Westerners would dislike, but well ...).

"My own experience is consistent with the idea that He expects and demands respect, but also expects you to learn from His example." - I don't have any problem with the idea of his demanding respect, but I think he sounds like a pretty non-authoritarian (not to be mistaken for "nice") boss in the myths. (Of course, the culture that worshipped him had slavery, but that's a problem nearly any religion arguably "has" by our standards.)

C5.2) "Add in the Western Occultism lens and a belief in reincarnation, and things get even messier." - Just to make absolutely sure: you know that there's explicit mention of reincarnation in ancient Europe, right? ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_Er .)

"The One-Eyed God (again!)" - No complaints here!

"Kershaw floats the idea that the notion of a feasting hall for the honored dead warriors of the tribe likely originally meant "all adult men", since all adult men would serve as warriors when needed." - Makes sense, but I might want to ask about half the population!

"Do you feel like his writings (as opposed to his lyrics) are worth checking out?" - Was wondering about whether you had a better-informed opinion, actually. I read and heard a few interviews with him, but read none of his books. He helped spread Sigurd Agrell's Uthark Theory, which I think has merit, and I think so do some of his LHP interpretations (e.g., if I may just throw another Therion song at you, see The Blood of Pingu - sorry, I mean Kingu; what I mean is, again, "telluric current"); but to me he sounded like "pompous windbag too fixated on a supposed antinomianism and paying too much attention to the lower nature*", i.e. a Thelemite stereotype?

*: note that his people having started from modern Scandinavians, frankly it's possible they need even *more* lower nature than what their LHP training may give them, but I'm definitely not Scandinavian, so even if that's true, I can't assume it relevant for me.

"That song's pretty rad, I'll have to check out at least the rest of the album, if not more Therion." - I'll recommend Secret of the Runes and the 3 subsequent albums; the ones before are less symphonic and the ones after less metal IIRC. (Lyrics-wise, at least some of the albums before are no less well-written occult-wise, though they may be about parts of occultist you'd be (I am) less interested in; I think some of the later ones go away from occultism.)

"Thanks to "Survive the Jive", I've been enjoying Wolcensmen lately, which is "dark folk", and so not as hard, but still high-quality music made by a practicing Heathen about relevant topics." - Bought Fire in the H...wite Stone - thanks! You know, Therion's a fairly well-known metal band that you did hear a bit about before, while, notwithstanding Dan Capp being well-connected enough to have called a bunch of other musicians, I think he's still pretty obscure; so, let me try to repay that - have you heard about Farya Faraji already (I just remembered I hadn't actually bought any of his albums.)? His work isn't mainly about religion, but there are themes from a bunch of religions, some of his YouTube videos debunk wrong impressions about musical history, and you might want to check the songs in Echoes of Byzantium Vol. I (as per the Bandcamp track list), and Thrymskvidha and The Varangians, including his commmentary.

C7.1) "what matters is if it puts me in touch with spiritual truths, and since those insights can be guided by separate, conscious Beings, "different but still right" is a valid outcome." - I might be too Progressive (and maybe secondarily too history-minded) to remember that as often as I should, but it does appear to make sense.

[jprussell]

Eh, I don't question (taking claims at face value) they have a right to do so, but that doesn't by itself prove they aren't making the world worse - I think "condemning", in this sense, is quite fitting.

I wouldn't classify myself as a prude for having a problem with that; and, well, Kaldera also made a claim about it not being always about sex, but I might say the difference from the guys at National Geographic is that they aren't having sex while doing it (technically, some of the stuff about cultures on National Geographic omits sexual content Westerners would dislike, but well ...).

Yeah, I guess I don't have a specific theory of how they're making the world worse with these actions, just a negative gut reaction, and I don't feel like I'm knowledgeable or experienced enough to rely on that gut reaction in this field. It's further complicated by the fact that I've found some of their books rather helpful. Still, it does set off my "by their fruits ye shall know them" alarm to tread carefully.

I don't have any problem with the idea of his demanding respect, but I think he sounds like a pretty non-authoritarian (not to be mistaken for "nice") boss in the myths. (Of course, the culture that worshipped him had slavery, but that's a problem nearly any religion arguably "has" by our standards.)

C5.2) Just to make absolutely sure: you know that there's explicit mention of reincarnation in ancient Europe, right? ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_Er .)

Thank you, I did, but embarrassingly enough, I only learned about this about a year ago when I finally got around to reading The Republic in its entirety. I was *shocked* to discover that the most famous work of Western philosophy has a super weird, super detailed discussion of reincarnation for the finale. I was then amused that when I went looking for discussion of it, *every* academic article was like "what weird symbolic point was Plato trying to make here?" and absolutely no one took seriously that maybe he (and/or Socrates) was trying to present what he believed to be accurate information about how the world works that might help you live a better life.

Makes sense, but I might want to ask about half the population!

Indeed! Maybe dead women are too busy being called up by necromancers to prophesize about the future to get a dedicated place to hang out.

Was wondering about whether you had a better-informed opinion, actually. I read and heard a few interviews with him, but read none of his books. He helped spread Sigurd Agrell's Uthark Theory, which I think has merit, and I think so do some of his LHP interpretations (e.g., if I may just throw another Therion song at you, see The Blood of Pingu - sorry, I mean Kingu; what I mean is, again, "telluric current"); but to me he sounded like "pompous windbag too fixated on a supposed antinomianism and paying too much attention to the lower nature*", i.e. a Thelemite stereotype?

Ah, sorry not to have been able to help you out there. More and more it's becoming clear to me that just about every occultist is a mixed bag in some way. The very best you can hope for seems to be "you had your head on straight and did everything right, but you followed a spiritual path that doesn't suit me so well" (like, e.g. Dion Fortune and seemingly JMG).

*: note that his people having started from modern Scandinavians, frankly it's possible they need even *more* lower nature than what their LHP training may give them, but I'm definitely not Scandinavian, so even if that's true, I can't assume it relevant for me.

Heh, yeah, I hadn't exactly considered the cultural element here, but that does make good sense. In my own work, I've gotten the impression that I do indeed need to get more in touch with the Telluric current, but have been consistently getting the lesson "it's not just about sex! calm down and pay attention to what else is going on here."

I'll recommend Secret of the Runes and the 3 subsequent albums; the ones before are less symphonic and the ones after less metal IIRC. (Lyrics-wise, at least some of the albums before are no less well-written occult-wise, though they may be about parts of occultist you'd be (I am) less interested in; I think some of the later ones go away from occultism.)

Thanks much for this.

Bought Fire in the H...wite Stone - thanks! You know, Therion's a fairly well-known metal band that you did hear a bit about before, while, notwithstanding Dan Capp being well-connected enough to have called a bunch of other musicians, I think he's still pretty obscure; so, let me try to repay that - have you heard about Farya Faraji already (I just remembered I hadn't actually bought any of his albums.)? His work isn't mainly about religion, but there are themes from a bunch of religions, some of his YouTube videos debunk wrong impressions about musical history, and you might want to check the songs in Echoes of Byzantium Vol. I (as per the Bandcamp track list), and Thrymskvidha and The Varangians, including his commmentary.

You're welcome, and thanks for this! I had not heard of Faraji, I'm checking out his stuff now. Poking around, I was like "wait, is that the Misirlou I think it is?" and sure enough! I had no idea it originated as a folksong, I only knew the Dick Dale version and its many homages.

C7.1) I might be too Progressive (and maybe secondarily too history-minded) to remember that as often as I should, but it does appear to make sense.

I bring it up at least as much to remind myself as anything else!

[deketemoisont]

Did you mean to reply to

"I don't have any problem with the idea of his demanding respect, but I think he sounds like a pretty non-authoritarian (not to be mistaken for "nice") boss in the myths. (Of course, the culture that worshipped him had slavery, but that's a problem nearly any religion arguably "has" by our standards.)" ?

C5.2) "Thank you, I did, but embarrassingly enough, I only learned about this about a year ago when I finally got around to reading The Republic in its entirety. I was *shocked* to discover that the most famous work of Western philosophy has a super weird, super detailed discussion of reincarnation for the finale. I was then amused that when I went looking for discussion of it, *every* academic article was like "what weird symbolic point was Plato trying to make here?" and absolutely no one took seriously that maybe he (and/or Socrates) was trying to present what he believed to be accurate information about how the world works that might help you live a better life." - Unfortunately, I didn't learn about it long ago either; first heard ancient Europeans believed in reincarnation and thought that was New-Ager projection, then heard about it without that specific source, then that extremely clear source. While most of his work doesn't have a lot to do with the subject, a historian that outright said classical Europeans seem to have believed in reincarnation is Philip Matyszak (didn't read his books; heard him on Radio War Nerd, where he was great).

"Indeed! Maybe dead women are too busy being called up by necromancers to prophesize about the future to get a dedicated place to hang out." - Kek!

"Ah, sorry not to have been able to help you out there." - No problem; enough occultists drew my attention for a long time, and I also need to go back to some non-occult reading!

"The very best you can hope for seems to be "you had your head on straight and did everything right, but you followed a spiritual path that doesn't suit me so well" (like, e.g. Dion Fortune and seemingly JMG)." - I'd have understood you saying this about JMG - until you said you were practicing the Dolmen Arch work!

Just listened to Fire in the White Stone with the proper attention. It's beautiful; that said, between my not-so-great familiarity with older English, poetic sensibility of a stone (if that's not a wholly unjustified insult to the noble race of stones), and having wrongly thought the short story would be within the digital album, I won't pretend to have understood all of it!

[jprussell]

"I don't have any problem with the idea of his demanding respect, but I think he sounds like a pretty non-authoritarian (not to be mistaken for "nice") boss in the myths. (Of course, the culture that worshipped him had slavery, but that's a problem nearly any religion arguably "has" by our standards.)" ?

Ah, sorry, I likely shouldn't have quoted this, as I didn't have anything to add. I agree, Odin seems pretty anti-authoritarian, even in the myths, and yeah, pretty much every agricultural culture for most of history had slavery of one kind or another.

C5.2) Unfortunately, I didn't learn about it long ago either; first heard ancient Europeans believed in reincarnation and thought that was New-Ager projection, then heard about it without that specific source, then that extremely clear source. While most of his work doesn't have a lot to do with the subject, a historian that outright said classical Europeans seem to have believed in reincarnation is Philip Matyszak (didn't read his books; heard him on Radio War Nerd, where he was great).

Thanks for the recommendation, I might have to check him out. There are some kinda-sorta references to at least a limited kind of reincarnation in the Germanic sources. This is one of those areas where I've read a bunch of modern stuff, but I don't yet have a good handle on the source material. I think Davidson's The Road to Hel is gonna be a good source for this.

"Ah, sorry not to have been able to help you out there." - No problem; enough occultists drew my attention for a long time, and I also need to go back to some non-occult reading!

Yeah, it's tough that there's so much to read and so little time. I find the constraint of "I can only meditate on so much" a helpful (if painful) limit on how much occult material to read in a given amount of time.

I'd have understood you saying this about JMG - until you said you were practicing the Dolmen Arch work!

Hah, fair enough! As I mentioned upthread, I have changed my mind somewhat on Revival Druidry as a practice, and I find that a helpful part of what I'm doing, at least for now. Where I part ways with JMG is more around the specifics of the Welsh Druid Gods, who have, at least so far, had no role in my spiritual life. Also, Heathenry is pretty central to my own spiritual practice, and almost entirely absent from JMG's.

Just listened to Fire in the White Stone with the proper attention. It's beautiful; that said, between my not-so-great familiarity with older English, poetic sensibility of a stone (if that's not a wholly unjustified insult to the noble race of stones), and having wrongly thought the short story would be within the digital album, I won't pretend to have understood all of it!

I also wouldn't go so far as to say I understand it, especially since it apparently is largely based on personal spiritual experience. I haven't read/listened to the Novella yet, but maybe I should. I also rather like the other Album and the EP (Songs from the Fyrgen and Songs from the Mere). I especially find "Sunne" (the theme for "Survive the Jive") useful - I try to sing the chorus from it when I first see the risen sun and have some privacy, and it makes for a good praise song/prayer.