I just wrapped up Rudolf Otto's The Idea of the Holy and decided to organize my thinking a bit with a post. As always, I'd love to hear what you think.
Thank you for the kind words, and you're most welcome!
1) Well, with that quote, I wasn't saying that the numinous is necessarily dangerous, but that the feeling is similar to things where part of the awe/thrill/respect felt is for a recognition of danger. I think the linking idea is the experience of something immense and/or powerful, and the recognition that it is enough that it could be dangerous. Sometimes this might be wrapped up in values. For example, if you are materially very comfortable, you have high social status, and your life is predictable in all the ways you want it to be, the call to religious practice, or the invitation to re-evaluate how much you should care about wealth, status, and predictability might feel dangerous. In my own experience, I've never felt like the Gods are going to literally hurt me, but I have been challenged to give up things that I have found comfortable, and the thought of openly (in person, anyway, I'm pretty open in weird corners of the internet like around here) admitting that I think the Gods are real and worship of Them is a better use of my time than watching the latest Marvel movie or climbing a workplace hierarchy can be pretty scary.
Does that help clarify?
2) Well, for one, as I mentioned to k_a_nitz above, I was being a touch flippant with that line, but there is a point of connection between the two. Otto's use of the term for "coming to sense the numinous and better understand it" is basically what divinatory tools like Tarot Cards or Runestaves are for. From a few comments in the book, he seems to see such tools as primitive and possibly crass, but the way I see it when I cast the Runes is that I'm trying to find another avenue to understanding how Wyrd (roughly, "fate") may be shaping the world and events around me, and to gain more insight than more mundane tools might give me.
But yes, basically, he's using the term in a different sense than the generally accepted meaning, one that downplays the "predicting the future" aspect and instead emphasizes the "coming to know the will of (the) God(s)."
If I may jump in (on [1]), you're describing something I keep beating my head against in Greek—the adjective δεινός, which means "awful" in the same sort of archaic sense you mention in the blog post: anything that inspires awe, whether it be adoration, wonderment, or abject terror. (Aphrodite's beauty may be "awful" in the first sense, or seeing the ocean for the first time may be "awful" in the second sense, or Hades' three-headed fire-breathing monster-dog may be "awful" in the third sense. None of these are "awful" in the modern sense of how the lazy kid did on his math test.) There doesn't seem to be any good fit for δεινός in English, any more, and literal Greek translations tend to be a little tortured because of it (and words like it).
English is a very versatile language, but the more I look into other languages, the more its failings become apparent to me, and it's frustrating. I long for the day where I can finally speak without words...
Greek is pesky that way (my usual go-to for this is ἀρετή (areté). You can always take the approach of long ages of classicists - just borrow the word, maybe lightly Anglicized. That has it's own issues, of course, but it does sometimes feel like the best option (I mean, heck, the main idea in the book reviewed here is expressed with a direct borrowing from Latin: the numinous).
As for failings of English, agreed, but it strikes me that every language handles some things better than others. In this case, the single Greek word δεινός (deinós) stresses the similarity of the examples you gave, where English arguably emphasizes their differences better. Flip it around, and Greek's various words for different kinds of love (ἀγάπη (agápē), φιλαδελφία (philadelphía), ἔρως (érōs), and so forth) better highlight that these experiences are different, whereas English "love" better emphasizes what they have in common. There's likely something interesting to be worked out by looking at which concepts a language distinguishes versus smashing together, like the semi-mythical Inuit words for snow or Arabic words for sand.
As you say, moving beyond the need for arbitrary verbal/visual markers for concepts would be awfully convienient (there's that word!).
Absolutely, I agree in all respects. (Though, I fear I already have a hard time being understood in English, so if I started mixing Greek into my prose, it'd be hopeless...)
One quick note for future reference is that the second kind of love is φιλία ("friendship") rather than φιλαδελφία (φιλία-ἀδελφός "the love of brothers"). It is common to address someone as "ὦ φίλαι," "my friend" or "my dear."
Oh man, Greek loves compound words, so it's pretty common to see roots squished together and it's hard to tell what constitutes a "word." (Looking something up in the dictionary is something of an art form and I'm no good at it yet.) My dictionary, at least, has these roots:
Thanks, yes, that clarifies it! So you mean "danger" in the sense that the next card from the Tarot deck may be the Ten of Swords. That feels dangerous to me as well.
SDI's remark about Aphrodite's beauty is on point, that certainly is dangerous. Aha.
So far I do not see the Tarot as religious. The Tarot is a tool to make my mind work better. It does so by connecting my current worries to random elements. The Tarot advances my understanding of religion like it does for any other subject. You could use the Tarot for nefarious purposes where the numinous would not cooperate.
1) Being pretty ignorant of the Tarot, I'll have to take your word for it!
2) Indeed!
3) Fair enough, but that depends a bit on what you believe is going on with divination (meaning roughly "fortune telling") metaphysically: is it only a tool for spurring subconscious insights, a method for revealing the obscure will of the Gods, a window into the non-personalized forces of fate, or some combination? With the links he made with Cabala, Levi clearly intended it as a vehicle of religious symbolism and meaning, but lots of modern practitioners see it very differently.
Thanks for your reply. The Tarot improves understanding regardless of subject. When using pompous language, you could say it "reveals the obscure will of the Gods". I do not think of that as religious in and of itself. An atheist can use the Tarot to analyse a motorcycle problem.
The Cabala and Levi are unknown areas to me, so I'll have to take your word for that! Looking forward to next week's post.
Sorry, reviewing the thread, I realized I wasn't as careful in my statements as I ought to have been. In my first reply to you, I said "Otto's use of the term for "coming to sense the numinous and better understand it" is basically what divinatory tools like Tarot Cards or Runestaves are for." and later, in response to you saying that for you, the Tarot is not religious, I said "Fair enough, but that depends a bit on what you believe is going on with divination (meaning roughly "fortune telling") metaphysically," the former of which slightly assumes a conclusion from the second, as well as taking a historical development for granted, so let me try to re-state more clearly.
When methods of what are commonly called "divination" (i.e. "fortune telling" or helping with questions where the answer is not obvious) were developed, the dominant understanding of what was happening was that the tool was a way to get more information from the Gods, hence the name, which contains "divin(e)." As such, I wasn't trying to be pompous when I said "revealing the obscure will of the Gods" - I meant that some people (especially historically) literally believe that is what is happening when you do divination - when you pull a Tarot spread and lay it out, or throw the Runestaves, or draw up a horomancy chart, or whatever, what is actually happening, according to these folks, is that the Gods are communicating with you through this medium.
Now, these days, there are more theories as to what makes divination work: the subconscious reacting to random, symbolically-rich images or concepts, impersonal forces like Fate or Wyrd being seen more clearly by focusing on those things they most directly control ("random" events), some form of communication from the Gods, or whatever else. An atheist who finds Tarot useful would likely believe the first is what's happening, whereas a theist might believe one of the others, or some combination (I tend towards "some combination" as the most likely explanation, but for purposes of this discussion, I'm not trying to convince you, just putting my cards on the table (heh)).
All of which means that, to the degree "divination" (with cards, lots, or whatever) is seen as "communication from the Gods," the semantic link between Otto's use of the word and the common use of it is more clear and direct. If, on the other hand, non-divine factors entirely explain what's going on with "fortune telling," the common use of the word "divination" is only linked with Otto's use of the word through a historical mistake (e.g. ancient people believing that which random symbols you got were influenced by the Gods, who are trying to talk to you, and hence naming that practice with a word to means "communicating with the divine"). The common factor is that the word has been applied to different behaviors thought by those using the word to mean "better understanding the Gods," and that's how we ended up with the same word for such outwardly disparate behaviors.
Hopefully that makes what I was trying to get at a bit more clear.
Edited (Fixed repetition of "symbolic") 2024-09-11 17:28 (UTC)
Thanks for putting your cards on the table! I assumed "revealing the obscure will of the Gods" was a quote from Levi, the French writer known for his pompous language. So apologies for appearing to call your writing pompous.
No worries! It is certainly a phrase that would be at least a bit bombastic, and quite possibly pompous, if being used for something like "what's going to happen" (and might still be).
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1) Well, with that quote, I wasn't saying that the numinous is necessarily dangerous, but that the feeling is similar to things where part of the awe/thrill/respect felt is for a recognition of danger. I think the linking idea is the experience of something immense and/or powerful, and the recognition that it is enough that it could be dangerous. Sometimes this might be wrapped up in values. For example, if you are materially very comfortable, you have high social status, and your life is predictable in all the ways you want it to be, the call to religious practice, or the invitation to re-evaluate how much you should care about wealth, status, and predictability might feel dangerous. In my own experience, I've never felt like the Gods are going to literally hurt me, but I have been challenged to give up things that I have found comfortable, and the thought of openly (in person, anyway, I'm pretty open in weird corners of the internet like around here) admitting that I think the Gods are real and worship of Them is a better use of my time than watching the latest Marvel movie or climbing a workplace hierarchy can be pretty scary.
Does that help clarify?
2) Well, for one, as I mentioned to
But yes, basically, he's using the term in a different sense than the generally accepted meaning, one that downplays the "predicting the future" aspect and instead emphasizes the "coming to know the will of (the) God(s)."
Cheers,
Jeff
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English is a very versatile language, but the more I look into other languages, the more its failings become apparent to me, and it's frustrating. I long for the day where I can finally speak without words...
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As for failings of English, agreed, but it strikes me that every language handles some things better than others. In this case, the single Greek word δεινός (deinós) stresses the similarity of the examples you gave, where English arguably emphasizes their differences better. Flip it around, and Greek's various words for different kinds of love (ἀγάπη (agápē), φιλαδελφία (philadelphía), ἔρως (érōs), and so forth) better highlight that these experiences are different, whereas English "love" better emphasizes what they have in common. There's likely something interesting to be worked out by looking at which concepts a language distinguishes versus smashing together, like the semi-mythical Inuit words for snow or Arabic words for sand.
As you say, moving beyond the need for arbitrary verbal/visual markers for concepts would be awfully convienient (there's that word!).
Cheers,
Jeff
no subject
One quick note for future reference is that the second kind of love is φιλία ("friendship") rather than φιλαδελφία (φιλία-ἀδελφός "the love of brothers"). It is common to address someone as "ὦ φίλαι," "my friend" or "my dear."
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φιλία [philia] "friendship"
ἔρως [eros] "sexual desire"
ἀγάπη [agape] "(non-sexual) love"
στοργή [storge] "affection" (esp. parents for childen, etc.)
And then it's common to combine words to get more specific:
φιλ-αδελφία [philadelphia] "love for a brother"
φιλ-ανδρία [philandria] "love for a husband"
etc.
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Thanks, yes, that clarifies it! So you mean "danger" in the sense that the next card from the Tarot deck may be the Ten of Swords. That feels dangerous to me as well.
SDI's remark about Aphrodite's beauty is on point, that certainly is dangerous. Aha.
So far I do not see the Tarot as religious. The Tarot is a tool to make my mind work better. It does so by connecting my current worries to random elements. The Tarot advances my understanding of religion like it does for any other subject. You could use the Tarot for nefarious purposes where the numinous would not cooperate.
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2) Indeed!
3) Fair enough, but that depends a bit on what you believe is going on with divination (meaning roughly "fortune telling") metaphysically: is it only a tool for spurring subconscious insights, a method for revealing the obscure will of the Gods, a window into the non-personalized forces of fate, or some combination? With the links he made with Cabala, Levi clearly intended it as a vehicle of religious symbolism and meaning, but lots of modern practitioners see it very differently.
Cheers,
Jeff
no subject
Thanks for your reply. The Tarot improves understanding regardless of subject. When using pompous language, you could say it "reveals the obscure will of the Gods". I do not think of that as religious in and of itself. An atheist can use the Tarot to analyse a motorcycle problem.
The Cabala and Levi are unknown areas to me, so I'll have to take your word for that! Looking forward to next week's post.
no subject
When methods of what are commonly called "divination" (i.e. "fortune telling" or helping with questions where the answer is not obvious) were developed, the dominant understanding of what was happening was that the tool was a way to get more information from the Gods, hence the name, which contains "divin(e)." As such, I wasn't trying to be pompous when I said "revealing the obscure will of the Gods" - I meant that some people (especially historically) literally believe that is what is happening when you do divination - when you pull a Tarot spread and lay it out, or throw the Runestaves, or draw up a horomancy chart, or whatever, what is actually happening, according to these folks, is that the Gods are communicating with you through this medium.
Now, these days, there are more theories as to what makes divination work: the subconscious reacting to random, symbolically-rich images or concepts, impersonal forces like Fate or Wyrd being seen more clearly by focusing on those things they most directly control ("random" events), some form of communication from the Gods, or whatever else. An atheist who finds Tarot useful would likely believe the first is what's happening, whereas a theist might believe one of the others, or some combination (I tend towards "some combination" as the most likely explanation, but for purposes of this discussion, I'm not trying to convince you, just putting my cards on the table (heh)).
All of which means that, to the degree "divination" (with cards, lots, or whatever) is seen as "communication from the Gods," the semantic link between Otto's use of the word and the common use of it is more clear and direct. If, on the other hand, non-divine factors entirely explain what's going on with "fortune telling," the common use of the word "divination" is only linked with Otto's use of the word through a historical mistake (e.g. ancient people believing that which random symbols you got were influenced by the Gods, who are trying to talk to you, and hence naming that practice with a word to means "communicating with the divine"). The common factor is that the word has been applied to different behaviors thought by those using the word to mean "better understanding the Gods," and that's how we ended up with the same word for such outwardly disparate behaviors.
Hopefully that makes what I was trying to get at a bit more clear.
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Thanks for putting your cards on the table! I assumed "revealing the obscure will of the Gods" was a quote from Levi, the French writer known for his pompous language. So apologies for appearing to call your writing pompous.
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